[PC-BSD Testing] PC-BSD 8.1 RC1 - thoughts and ideas

finid at linuxbsdos.com finid at linuxbsdos.com
Wed Jul 7 13:28:34 PDT 2010

> On 07/07/2010 12:01 PM, finid at linuxbsdos.com wrote:
>>> On 07/07/2010 4:25 AM, Johann Kois wrote:
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>> On 07.07.2010 02:20, Mike Bybee wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Johann Kois<jkois at freebsd.org
>>>>> <mailto:jkois at freebsd.org>>   wrote:
>>>>>       -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>       Hash: SHA1
>>>>>       On 07.07.2010 01:02, finid at linuxbsdos.com
>>>>>       <mailto:finid at linuxbsdos.com>   wrote:
>>>>>       >>>
>>>>>       >>   I actually like the development tab and use it regularly -
>>>>> I'd
>>>>>       vote to
>>>>>       >>   keep it. Realistically very few actual 'end users' use
>>>>> PC-BSD,
>>>>>       but a lot
>>>>>       >   of devs do.
>>>>>       >
>>>>>       >   Mike, those "end users" are actually waiting, desperately
>>>>> waiting for
>>>>>       >   PC-BSD to become a lot more end user-friendly, so that they
>>>>> can
>>>>>       use it.
>>>>>       >
>>>>>       >   --
>>>>>       >   Fini D.
>>>>>       >    ___________________________
>>>>>       Hm, you want to clarify what makes the system so "totally
>>>>> unusable" at
>>>>>       the moment?  So that "the end-users" cannot use it?
>>>>>       jkois
>>>>>       - --
>>>>>        Johann Kois
>>>>>        jkois(at)FreeBSD.org
>>>>>        FreeBSD Documentation Project
>>>>>        FreeBSD German Documentation Project - https://doc.bsdgroup.de
>>>>> If you mean that seriously, I can provide notes from my most recent
>>>>> pilot project. If you're being facetious, then I would recommend you
>>>>> go
>>>>> find a random business person and ask them to use PC-BSD for 2 weeks.
>>>> I am always serious.  No time for joking around on mailinglists.  But
>>>> if
>>>> such a statement as above is made (and "cannot use a system" for me
>>>> equals "is not usable, therefore unusable") I just want to know what
>>>> exactly the encountered problems are.
>>>> But that is not the real point here.  I agree there are several issues
>>>> regarding the usage of PC-BSD which will/can create problems
>>>> especially
>>>> for end-users (by that I mean newer/less experienced users).
>>>> But:
>>>> - - Are all these problems documented somewhere?  And I am not talking
>>>> about a post on a mailinglist here, because it is pretty easy to miss
>>>> such reports within all the posts on the list.  Maybe they are all
>>>> reported on http://trac.pcbsd.org as feature requests/problem reports?
>>>> - - If they are all documented/reported.  Is there enough manpower to
>>>> investigate/implement all these changes?  Does the PC-BSD Project even
>>>> have the possibility to change/fix all of them?  I think we know the
>>>> answer to that questions (unfortunately) ...
>>>> - - What is/should be the ultimate goal of PC-BSD?  Making
>>>> experiencing
>>>> "BSD on the desktop" easier?  Or make it the "perfect desktop
>>>> experience"?  In reality it is probably the first one, but what many
>>>> people would like to see is the second one (again mostly a problem of
>>>> available manpower/ressources).
>>> <two cents>
>>> I've been reading the posts and didn't want to chime in until now
>>> because the common theme
>>> I'm seeing running through some of the messages can be translated to:
>>> BSD to Windows users
>>> is alien because stuff is not where they're used to seeing it. And
>>> being
>>> a 20+ years Windoze guy,
>>> I can understand.
>> Arthur,
>> I don't think that's what this is all about. The gist is lots of stuff
>> don't work, or don't work well enough. We do not need to put apps and
>> admin tools where Windows users are used to finding them. That's the
>> mistake the DE devs (KDE, GNOME) made. Instead of innovating, they chose
>> to copy Windows because they were targeting Windows users. Look at what
>> Apple did with Mac OS X.
>> We just need to make stuff that works, and put out a default
>> configuration
>> that's intuitive to use.
>> The interesting part of this is while we are still fixing the
>> traditional
>> desktop, the (computing) world is gradually moving away from it. When
>> are
>> we going to stat working on something that can be installed on a
>> tablet-like device, with touch capabilities? Or does that already exist?
>> --
>> Fini D.
>> http://LinuxBSDnews.com
> Fini,
> Yes, I see you point. If I were inferring that BSD/Linux be contoured
> towards Windows folks, GUI or otherwise, that wasn't what I meant. I was
> trying to make the analogy of how to get the Linuxes and BSDs to the
> point that the average shmoe could be productive to the level of
> whatever they are currently using. How do you get adoption of a
> different platform from an entrenched platform? To me, *nix has always
> been the domain of servers and not average consumer desktop so I
> sometimes wonder if it's the square peg in the round hole that's
> happening in the *nix world. Again, I'm no expert, it's just what I
> perceive.

"*nix has always been the domain of servers..." because the *nix world
didn't think the desktop was worth fighting for, or they did not have the
vision of Steve Jobs. Solaris should have worked on the desktop as well as
it did on the server, but Scott McNeally did not care enough to direct
resources at it.

> Yes, a lot of stuff is broken or barely half there. And even what's
> there is sometimes butt ugly. Much of the effort in the community is
> often free whereas the established commercial OSes out there (Windows /
> Mac OS) have huge pools of cash and devs to throw at their problems. Can
> you imagine if Linux / BSD had that kind of cash and that amount devs to
> innovate and improve upon their respective platform? And let's face it,
> commercial apps makers are always going to go where there's money to be
> made. Don't forget what happened when Walmart teamed up with Everex back
> in 2007.

Availability of cash was just part of the problem. For a very long time,
the BSD folks had a very dim view of graphical user interfaces. Much of
our problem was attitude and mindset. It's what's killing the openBSD
community. They have a very negative attitude towards graphical user
interfaces that's just mind blowing.

> In some form or another, I feel there's always going to be *some* kind
> of desktop interface / GUI to get the job done. It's hard to say if it's
> too little to late. The technology will never supersede the user or it
> will fail miserably. I don't know that tablet-touch is the way the world
> is going just because Apple and some no-count bloggers have deemed it
> so. Is it innovative, hardly. It's just another "me too" device for
> consumers to buy. And forget the whole 3D-floating-in-the-air GUI
> a-la-Avatar thing, not gonna happen. I remember sitting on the toilet 12
> years thinking it would be great to get rid of a newspapers / magazines
> and have some flat device that connected to the Internet to grab news
> while doing #1. Should have patented that one. :-)
> Didn't a lot of "touch" code get introduced in xserver 1.7 or 1.8? I'd
> guess there's *nix powered touch stuff out there for PC hardware but I
> don't follow that news close enough. And hey, Android is Linux based and
> does touch. I guess Android OS is coming to vanilla x86/x64 hardware so
> perhaps there's some evolution that might occur there. We'll have to see
> where the wind blows I guess.

There will always be the desktop, but at some point, it will, in the
jargon of evolutionary biology, become a peripheral isolate. The future is
in mobile devices, and thanks to major players like Google, intel and
Nokia, it's all gonna revolve around Linux (Android, MeeGo, Linaro and a
bunch of other spinoffs). Even the traditional desktop, or what remains of
it, will be touch-capable.

How are we going to evolve?

Fini D.

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