[PC-BSD Dev] meeting chat Log - 2009-04-20

Fabrizio Parrella fabrizio at bibivu.com
Mon Apr 20 14:03:55 PDT 2009

EST time
Conversation with #pcbsd-team
(14:03:32) EffEPi77: hey
 (14:03:38) kmoore134: Hey there!
 (14:03:45) EffEPi77: Fabry here :-)
 (14:03:51) yerenkow: do this channel logging? I mean can we have this 
conversation logged for future rethinking? :)
 (14:04:16) EffEPi77: I am using pidgin, I can log and post it someplace 
when we need
 (14:04:17) kmoore134: sure, who wants to do that?
 (14:04:27) kmoore134: ok, great
 (14:04:30) EffEPi77: I am not going to be here all the time, but the 
window will stay open as long as necessary
 (14:05:34) yerenkow: ok. I made some discussing "plan", here 
 (14:05:52) yerenkow: let's go from #1. Why we have PBI corrupted, is 
there any way to automate PBI Checks?
 (14:06:46) kmoore134: depends on the type of corruption you mean. If 
its just that we had an old PBI from before we move to schema 2, those 
bugs are going away as we replace them with currently built PBIs
 (14:06:49) EffEPi77: Gon had a great idea for pbidir about this... have 
a way for people to just "click" to report any problems
 (14:07:13) kmoore134: Yea, that was a great idea, so we can get instant 
warning if something is bad / not working
 (14:07:28) miwi [n=miwi at cl-2464.ham-01.de.sixxs.net] entered the room.
 (14:07:31) miwi: howdy
 (14:07:39) jpaetzel: Hi miwi
 (14:07:44) EffEPi77: hey miwi
 (14:07:47) yerenkow: But why we have somehow broken PBI uploaded in the 
first time?
 (14:08:07) yerenkow: I mean, can we run this ./PBI -extract at least, 
and check errors?
 (14:08:26) kmoore134: That may be possible, do some auto-mated check to 
make sure its legit on the site
 (14:09:10) yerenkow: All PBI's which I seen here was simple 
"corrupted", and in command line that was seen too.
 (14:09:44) yerenkow: So, while we have no PBI-builder engine which 
makes no mistakes, could we create this additional test-step?
 (14:10:09) yerenkow: All PBI's = All broken PBI's. ....
 (14:10:11) kmoore134: yes, I'll look into this. Maybe put script which 
just "checks" to confirm its correct file / md5 etc
 (14:10:51) yerenkow: Any other thoughts about this? Or move to #2? :)
 (14:11:16) kmoore134: I think thats good :) Before we move to #2, can 
we let miwi talk for a bit, hes got some news about 8/kde4
 (14:12:43) MelkorBSD [n=MelkorBS at melkorbsd.static.corbina.ru] entered 
the room.
 (14:12:50) EffEPi77: hey melkor
 (14:13:00) EffEPi77: I am ok with that.. want surely hear the news :)
 (14:13:07) MelkorBSD: hi all
 (14:13:40) kmoore134: Hey!
 (14:14:45) miwi: ups :)
 (14:15:53) yerenkow: http://pastebin.com/d1c722883 -- this is my 
discussing :plan", we currently finished #1, this for all newcomers
 (14:16:07) kmoore134: Martin, you want to tell everybody about the 8.0 
release, and issues with KDE4?
 (14:16:25) miwi: 8.0 will be released this year (code freeze beginn to 
the end of next month or so) the problem is the kppp (if_ppp ) was 
removed, and 8.0 will be have a new usb stack
 (14:16:59) yerenkow: new usb - I'm not sure this is a problem :)
 (14:17:15) jpaetzel: Doesn't PCBSD already use usb4bsd?
 (14:17:24) kmoore134: No, we are on standard 7.x freebsd stack
 (14:17:32) miwi: kde4 build failed with USB2 we use currently the old api
 (14:17:42) miwi: but this will be disabeld any time
 (14:17:46) miwi: and we need to be fixed that
 (14:17:52) jpaetzel: Ok, so that never materialized, I think we talked 
about moving to it last year.
 (14:17:53) miwi: we need now a programmer where can do that :(
 (14:18:17) yerenkow: hm, do kde at freebsd.org not have programmers? :(
 (14:18:19) kmoore134: yea, we talked about it, but it caused too many 
issues like we are finding now with kde4 :)
 (14:18:19) ***jpaetzel volunteers Jogn @ ix
 (14:18:24) kmoore134: haha
 (14:18:36) kmoore134: good thinking, leme see if John Hixson is around
 (14:18:52) miwi: yerenkow: currently now FreeBSD KDE team is a 2 mann 
project :(
 (14:19:02) miwi: s/mann/people
 (14:19:26) kmoore134: yea, they have been doing a TON of work to make 
KDE4 work on BSD, I only send over a few small patches from time to time
 (14:19:26) miwi: max and i do our best but we can't deal with all alone 
sorry we both have kids and family and a job :)
 (14:19:36) yerenkow: which kde parts not aware of new usb?
 (14:19:48) miwi: kdelibs/base/utils
 (14:19:52) jpaetzel: kmoore134: It's far easier just to commit him to 
doing things and tell Matt about it after the fact.
 (14:20:14) kmoore134: jpaetzel: sounds good to me ;)
 (14:20:39) kmoore134: miwi: do you have idea how much needs to be 
changed to work with new usb2? Is it just function / name changes?
 (14:21:12) miwi: kmoore134: old usb is hardcodet, stass@ told me we 
need a full rewrite :(
 (14:21:24) kmoore134: ouch!
 (14:21:39) yerenkow: ok, is new usb stack is documented well, to make 
 (14:22:10) miwi: yerenkow: not full yet but this will be finish befor 
the release is
 (14:22:22) yerenkow: are they planning some guide oldusb->newusb ?
 (14:22:50) miwi: I'm not sure but I can ask thompsa and let you know that
 (14:24:00) kmoore134: I wouldn't mind helping, but I got so much on my 
plate as it is, that its hard to find the time :(
 (14:24:17) yerenkow: how about let's back for kde-usb conversation in 
about three weeks? I'll get sources for this all, read something and 
talk to my cpp friend :)
 (14:24:57) miwi: sounds good
 (14:24:59) kmoore134: miwi: after we write patches, will we be able to 
submit to KDE for inclusion into their codebase?
 (14:25:10) yerenkow: I think yes
 (14:25:26) miwi: yes
 (14:25:35) miwi: I've now a commit bit for kde svn :)
 (14:25:46) kmoore134: ahh, excellent, thats what I needed to know :)
 (14:26:18) yerenkow: ok. can we now share IM-contacts? :) I think that 
would be helpful for me
 (14:26:26) kmoore134: is HAL working with new USB stack also BTW?
 (14:26:36) miwi: kmoore134: yep without problems :)
 (14:26:51) miwi: yerenkow: jabber: miwi at bsdcrew.de, skype: splash_111
 (14:26:55) miwi: irc miwi :)
 (14:27:49) kmoore134: miwi: do you have a yahoo-im as well?
 (14:28:06) miwi: no
 (14:28:23) kmoore134: ahh, have to setup a jabber account then :P
 (14:28:34) miwi: :)
 (14:28:45) yerenkow: ok, I have jabber: yerenkow at gmail.com, yahoo: 
zlobnyhacker, and skype: yerenkow
 (14:29:59) yerenkow: Ok, if anyone more want to share contacts - I'd 
like to get it :)
 (14:30:39) yerenkow: So, is there some more things broken in 8.0? :) Or 
we can go further, for #2
 (14:31:00) kmoore134: Well, the other thing to discuss, is how fast do 
we push on 8.0 for PC-BSD as well
 (14:31:15) kmoore134: if its only 3-4 months out, do we work on a 7.2 
release, or push ahead to 8.0?
 (14:31:37) kmoore134: I for one really could use the new USB stack. Got 
lots of new motherboards here which don't work with USB keyboard / mice 
on old stack
 (14:32:15) miwi: usb2 works really great and support a lot of new stuff 
also a lot new usb wlan sticks :)
 (14:32:16) jpaetzel: I'd say 7.2 is a waste of resources.
 (14:32:54) yerenkow: Many peoples currently still on 1.5, because of no 
"upgrade" feature in 7
 (14:32:57) kmoore134: jpaetzel: I'm leaning that way as well, since 8.0 
has lots of new goodies / features, that most desktop users will want
 (14:33:40) yerenkow: so, if we make upgrade 7->8, then I'd like to see 
8.0, if no - then 7.2 should be
 (14:33:42) kmoore134: yerenkow: That is by design though, I dont like 
offering upgrades from major releases, because they are often not binary 
compatiable. You end up having to re-install everything anyway
 (14:34:43) yerenkow: ok, so I think we should release 7.2 and stop in 7 
branch. and release only kernel and security patches, this would require 
minial attention
 (14:35:24) kmoore134: what would we want to do for 7.2 then. Just 
update ports / source and bugfixes, and throw all new features into 8.0?
 (14:35:50) jpaetzel: I don't see the point in doing a 7.2
 (14:35:56) kmoore134: for example, we have a brand-new system installer 
which we will merge in soon. Not sure if we should spend time making it 
work with 7.2, or get it working for 8
 (14:36:15) jpaetzel: FreeBSD can do it because it has the resources. 
What does it buy PC-BSD?
 (14:36:28) yerenkow: well, I think that source-freeze for 8.0 not 
guaranteed that it would out soon
 (14:36:45) jpaetzel: What makes you think that?
 (14:36:48) yerenkow: I remember 6.0, it was delaying forawhile
 (14:36:59) kmoore134: jpaetzel: True, plus we are already using 7.2PRE 
on our 7.1 release, so it won't really be a huge jump forward
 (14:37:50) jpaetzel: I have to run out for 20 minutes or so
 (14:37:51) jpaetzel: bbl
 (14:38:26) kmoore134: miwi, do we have any other major kde4 releases 
upcoming into ports tree? We are on 4.2.2, do you think we'll see a 4.3 
release soon?
 (14:38:42) yerenkow: Kris, maybe we should go through my plan, and 
after that maybe something became more clear? :)
 (14:38:55) kmoore134: that may be good, give it a few weeks to settle / 
get docs on USB porting
 (14:38:58) yerenkow: I'm about 7.2 or 8.0
 (14:39:18) jnixon3_: If we do release a 7.2, I dont think it should be 
considered a release, or renamed from Galileo, but I am not opposed to 
seeing it as an "update"
 (14:39:19) miwi: kris yes
 (14:39:34) miwi: 16 april is kde 4.3 soft feauter freeze
 (14:39:53) miwi: 5 mai KDE 4.3 BETA1 TAG
 (14:40:07) yerenkow: so we'll have 4.3 in month or so
 (14:40:08) miwi: 4.3 release 28 july
 (14:40:16) yerenkow: in three? :)
 (14:40:28) kmoore134: does 4.3 rely on QT 4.5 or still 4.4?
 (14:40:35) miwi: 4.4
 (14:41:00) yerenkow: does kde compiles with qt45?
 (14:41:08) miwi: btw what I know is that 4.4 will be backward complatil
 (14:41:09) yerenkow: or they dropped something
 (14:41:17) miwi: yerenkow: it works with 4.2.2
 (14:41:48) yerenkow: so we could take qt4.5 and build kde4 ?
 (14:41:53) kmoore134: ok. So maybe what we can do is a release of 
PC-BSD 7.2 in July, with FreeBSD 7.2-Base, and KDE 4.3 / QT 4.4 still, 
and make that the last in 7.x series?
 (14:42:11) miwi: we are more or less ready with qt4.5, we need after 
the ports freeze some cluster exp-runs to make sure nothink will break
 (14:42:46) kmoore134: miwi: will you replace qt 4.4 in ports, with 4.5 
when its ready, or have both available?
 (14:43:42) miwi: no we update 4.4 to 4.5
 (14:44:22) miwi: unfortunately we can't use both on the portstree :(
 (14:44:33) kmoore134: ahh, ok, makes sense
 (14:44:36) miwi: but if you want I can make copy in area51
 (14:44:54) kmoore134: naw, thats fine, its probably not a huge deal on 
my side here
 (14:45:10) kmoore134: when is FreeBSD 7.2 scheduled for release?
 (14:45:25) miwi: Announcement 4 May 2009
 (14:45:34) miwi: portsfreeze should be today end
 (14:45:36) kmoore134: ok, thats only in a few weeks, sheesh :P
 (14:45:50) kmoore134: I would hate to do a PC-BSD 7.2 release so soon 
after 7.1 :(
 (14:46:32) miwi: :)
 (14:46:33) kmoore134: all that would be different is is a more updated 
ports tree, and some of the bugfixes we've issues for 7.1 online 
already. Do you guys think that warrents a new release so quickly?
 (14:47:30) jnixon3_: Kris, do have to consider every dot release of 
PC-BSD as a "release"
 (14:47:32) yerenkow: We arenot following so pdeantic, we have 7.2PRE 
kernel in 7.1 PC-BSD, I'm not see any reason why we can't wait till 
June/July to release 7.2 with some additional things
 (14:48:58) kmoore134: true. So why don't we just do a minor release of 
7.2 june/july with latest ports / bugfixes. And then put all resources 
for new features into 8.x?
 (14:49:12) jnixon3_: I don't see a problem with going to 7.2, keeping 
the Galileo name, and calling it a "service pack" or something. In fact, 
unless there are many siginificant changes, we shouldn't call it a 
release, but we also should't skip out on the goodies.
 (14:49:48) yerenkow: just release update to 7.1.1 :D
 (14:50:47) kmoore134: jnixon: good idea, maybe get all your themeing / 
bugfixes put into it, and then make it more of a minor release. Or 
should we do like yerenkow thinks and do 7.1.1?
 (14:50:53) yerenkow: let's wait until release and first security fixes, 
and after that you should decide, whether it'll be 7.2 release, or some 
mandatory patch
 (14:50:59) jnixon3_: The problem with releasing new versions so often, 
we don't get much time to for people to adopt the new changes
 (14:51:31) kmoore134: True, it does move people too quickly at times :P
 (14:51:48) jnixon3_: And for some, not fast enough, hahaha
 (14:51:51) yerenkow: patch will do the magic :)
 (14:52:51) jnixon3_: whether we call it 7.1.1 or 7.1, I think we should 
keep it all labeled as the Galileo edition, and continue to market it as 
 (14:53:01) jnixon3_: 7.2*
 (14:53:38) kmoore134: I'm thinking thats the way to go. We'll make it 
just a minor update / patch to 7.1, and keep the Galileo name. Then work 
on a new name / theme change and bigger stuff for 8.0
 (14:54:28) MelkorBSD: better 7.2
 (14:54:28) yerenkow: okay, we done here or not? :)
 (14:54:42) kmoore134: We'll also keep new tools / features for 8.0, and 
make the next 7.2 release just bugfixes / port updates
 (14:54:50) jnixon3_: Yea, that'd be great :). I think we should 
consider keeping our naming schemes unrelated to specific dot releases, 
and be more flexible, so that say, when 8.1 comes out, it's not a whole 
"new" release.
 (14:55:22) kmoore134: great idea! Make 8.x a series, and keep the same 
name / theme, etc
 (14:55:27) jnixon3_: Exactly!
 (14:55:35) kmoore134: ok, I'm good with that
 (14:55:47) jnixon3_: Then we can brand for MUCh longer
 (14:55:51) jnixon3_: :)
 (14:56:01) kmoore134: Ok, I think were good here, on to next point?
 (14:56:26) yerenkow: so, all have my plan opened? :) we're on #2
 (14:57:34) kmoore134: I got list here. I'll probably be one to work 
with you on some of these PBI features / ideas. I'm open to doing 
anything we can to automate it further, saves us some work that way
 (14:58:23) MelkorBSD: dependence of kdelibs
 (14:58:39) yerenkow: OK, let me explain what I have here working;
 (14:59:26) yerenkow: I have script, CreateModule
 (15:00:37) yerenkow: I launch it like this: ./CreateModule audio/ardour 
 (15:02:26) kasina [n=kennedy at] entered the room.
 (15:02:39) kasina: hi guys
 (15:03:05) kmoore134: Hi Ken!
 (15:03:33) kasina: hi kmoore134
 (15:04:36) kmoore134: that script then makes the copy-files for our PBI 
module, right?
 (15:04:39) jpaetzel: back
 (15:04:54) jnixon3_: wb
 (15:05:13) jpaetzel: thanks
 (15:06:33) |yerenkow| [n=kvirc at] entered the room.
 (15:06:45) |yerenkow|: oh well
 (15:06:53) kmoore134: Melkor: are you running into problems with the 
kdelibs dependancy?
 (15:07:44) |yerenkow|: have yoou received some my messages in last 8 
minutes? :)
 (15:08:47) kmoore134: just this: I launch it like this: ./CreateModule 
audio/ardour NO_VST
 (15:08:53) MelkorBSD: kmoore134: We talked with you about it
 (15:09:18) |yerenkow|: [22:02:14] <yerenkow> it goes to 
/usr/ports/audio/ardour, parse it; replace all variables I specified 
with it's values (in this case, NO_VST is empty); each line is scanned, 
if there still not-replaced variables (like %%VST%%bin/ardourvst) - then 
this line not taking;
 (15:09:18) |yerenkow|: [22:02:41] [RAW]: usr /ports/audio/ardour/ 
parsing goes pkg-plist
 (15:09:18) |yerenkow|: [22:03:48] <yerenkow> so, my script builds list 
of files which provides this port, with given vaaribles
 (15:09:18) |yerenkow|: [22:04:11] <yerenkow> it creates from this info 
copy-files for PBi config
 (15:09:19) |yerenkow|: [22:04:39] <yerenkow> But! It currently couldn't 
found all depends libs/etc
 (15:09:21) |yerenkow|: [22:05:31] <yerenkow> So, I'm thinking about 
some cool and tricky sheme, like described under #2
 (15:09:23) |yerenkow|: [22:05:57] <yerenkow> Kris, all, have you read 
whole paragrapsh?
 (15:10:02) kmoore134: Yep, read it here. I think it makes sense, as 
long as you can get it working, I'm ok with us trying to use it
 (15:10:55) kmoore134: I'll be happy to work with you more on this, we 
can probably make it work nicely
 (15:11:27) |yerenkow|: ok then, I'll continue experimenting with this; 
only problem that code should be written twice - I'm making javacode, 
you probably want get shell scripts :)
 (15:11:33) gve [n=gve at 88-107-22-203.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] entered the 
 (15:11:42) kmoore134: Meklor: yea, i've tried it without KDE4, but the 
installer looks so ugly without the kde theme :(
 (15:11:55) |yerenkow|: ok; then short and quick #3 :)
 (15:12:06) kmoore134: yea, lets make #3 about 8.0 though
 (15:12:21) jnixon3_: Agreed :P
 (15:12:40) kmoore134: 7.2 will be purely bugfixes / port updates. Lets 
focus on new features / ideas for 8.0. One biggie is that we'll be 
putting in our new System Installer that Ken wrote
 (15:12:44) |yerenkow|: ok, ken and gve - http://pastebin.com/d1c722883 
here is discussion plan
 (15:12:48) kmoore134: it looks MUCH nicer that what we have
 (15:12:58) kmoore134: Not sure if you have URL to screenshot or not 
right now Ken :)
 (15:13:05) |yerenkow|: what about smaller/bigger resolution? it handles 
OK it
 (15:13:07) |yerenkow|: ?
 (15:13:15) jnixon3_: Oh yea, I'd like to see that
 (15:13:24) kmoore134: Ken, I think you said it scales properly right?
 (15:13:48) |yerenkow|: I'm using here 1024x600, and old installer's 
button is out of sight :)
 (15:15:12) kasina: yes it scales properly
 (15:15:28) kmoore134: do you have URL to screenshots anywhere ken?
 (15:15:35) |yerenkow|: so, what's big TODO's do each have for 8.0?
 (15:15:45) |yerenkow|: Except new cool installer? :)
 (15:17:10) kasina: The screenshots are somewhere in cyberspace
 (15:17:13) kmoore134: well, for my part, I've had some requests for OEM 
installer version
 (15:17:21) kasina: cant recall where - let me check
 (15:17:22) kasina: :)
 (15:17:28) gve left the room (quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
 (15:17:30) kmoore134: kasina: I've been looking, can't find them, don't 
remember where ;)
 (15:18:11) |yerenkow|: OEM it's like disk in envelope for hardware 
vendors? :)
 (15:18:53) kmoore134: yerenkow: yes. They want a version they can 
"pre-load" on a system, and on first boot it just sets up the users 
username / resolution. Then if they need to reload, its un-attended and 
restores system, stuff like that
 (15:19:10) jpaetzel: I'm frantically working on the livecd version of 
PCBSD. I just sorted out how to boot FreeBSD off a cd without mounting 
any filesystems off it
 (15:19:14) kasina: kris what were the requests for OEM installer?
 (15:19:27) jnixon3_: A complete visual makeover, including KDM, 
Ksplash, Plasma theme, icon pack, Window decoration (style and border), 
 (15:19:56) yerenkow left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection 
timed out)).
 (15:20:39) |yerenkow| is now known as yerenkow
 (15:20:44) kmoore134: here's what one guy asked for:
 (15:21:35) kmoore134: It allows you to install the drivers an software 
that the customer has ordered and then "seals" the install so that the 
the customer can set the root / admin password add users and time or any 
other localisation options and more importantly accept the EULA in the 
UK you can not accept it on the behalf of some one an you can land your 
self in prity hot water if you do.
 (15:22:05) yerenkow: :)
 (15:22:51) yerenkow: ok, I see. So, "restore" feature we already have, 
restoration console we have too (via xterm), what more...
 (15:22:57) EffEPi77: back, sorry
 (15:23:50) kmoore134: Another feature request is a GUI front-end to 
pbidir.com, in our Software & Updates tool
 (15:23:59) kasina: ok
 (15:24:12) kmoore134: so that you can search for apps locally, and 
install without having to use web-browser
 (15:24:15) kasina: thats a possibility
 (15:24:28) yerenkow: Kris, have you thought of some hidden partiton 
with installation files, to make ability restore full system without any 
original disks/internet?
 (15:24:40) kasina: I can handle the GUI but will need some help with 
the scripts
 (15:25:04) EffEPi77: the API from the website are already in place
 (15:25:11) EffEPi77: I just have to remember how to call them..
 (15:25:15) EffEPi77: they are in XML
 (15:25:32) jnixon3_: Yea, that'd be great!
 (15:25:42) jnixon3_: I mean
 (15:25:53) jnixon3_: It fits the theme of installing new wallpaper and 
plasmoids ;-)
 (15:26:02) EffEPi77: yep
 (15:26:13) jnixon3_: I'm ALL about integration
 (15:26:18) EffEPi77: actually I lvoe the way that Firefox 3 installs things
 (15:26:22) jnixon3_: Make it ezgg
 (15:26:27) EffEPi77: I agree
 (15:26:39) kmoore134: yerenkow: I hadn't though of that actually, but I 
know some will complain about extra space being used ;)
 (15:27:05) yerenkow: make it optional :)
 (15:27:09) EffEPi77: Kris, you can always set it that they can choose 
to have it or not :-)
 (15:27:28) kmoore134: kasina: I can help you with all script stuff. If 
we make it optional, we can have a "recovery" partition created at 
install time for OEM guys
 (15:27:31) jnixon3_: Yea, that'd be kind of great to have around the office
 (15:27:42) EffEPi77: I would choose not mainly 'cause my computers are 
20G drives.. but else I think is a great idea
 (15:28:18) kasina: kmoore134: sure
 (15:28:24) kmoore134: kasina: If you can add that "checkbox" to the new 
GUI, and have it just call a script, I can probably program it in 
 (15:28:34) yerenkow: ow, one more
 (15:28:43) kmoore134: we'll have to discuss this feature more on dev 
list, get a list of what we want it to do
 (15:29:15) yerenkow: if we install from slow CD or USB, better check if 
we have additioan 1Gb of space and copy PCBSD.tar.lzma to hdd before 
 (15:29:26) kmoore134: fabry: if you can remember the XML API, and 
e-mail me information, I can maybe start working on that for 8.0 in the 
next few months
 (15:29:59) EffEPi77: sure.. probably the API needs some work .. but 
they are easy to change...
 (15:30:09) EffEPi77: I'll try to find the old email that I sent you.. I 
have ti someplace
 (15:30:11) kmoore134: yerenkow: do you think that makes a difference? 
If its slow reading from CD/USB, it'll be just as slow to copy the file 
to disk, then re-extract it from disk->disk
 (15:30:12) jnixon3_: Has anyone ever tried integration between web 
services and the desktop, like say, auto-populating your flickr account 
with any image you put into the Images folder?
 (15:30:18) kmoore134: fabry: cool, thanks!
 (15:30:40) yerenkow: it's much FASTER to copy two big files from USB 
than untar it :)
 (15:30:51) EffEPi77: I saw some widgets for tweeter, so it should be 
possible to do it
 (15:30:59) rcuevas [n=rcuevas at] entered the room.
 (15:31:07) yerenkow: I've install from USB about two hours, while copy 
these two files took only 4 minutes or so
 (15:31:22) kmoore134: jnixon: we already have web-enabled with 
kipi-plugins. If you go to image in gwenview, and plugins -> export
 (15:31:30) kmoore134: does flikr, facebook and others
 (15:32:08) jnixon3_: Nice! So I'm talking about something you set up 
and forget about, just add pics to your images folder and BLAM, it uploads
 (15:32:11) yerenkow: so Kris, one more checkbox makes some peoples with 
not fast hardware more happy :)
 (15:32:37) gve2 [n=gve2 at 88-107-78-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] entered 
the room.
 (15:33:15) EffEPi77: jnixon3_: so you want a service that runs all the 
time, check for new files in the folder and upload them to a website...
 (15:33:20) kmoore134: jnixon: That may be something to ask the KDE 
lists about. Neat feature / plugin, but I'm probably not going to be 
able to write it :P
 (15:34:04) kmoore134: yerenkow: Was the slow install because of USB 
read times, or the lzma decompression in your case? :)
 (15:34:11) jnixon3_: Yea, I thought it'd be KDE specific, just 
something I thought be nice
 (15:34:17) yerenkow: I think both :)
 (15:34:28) jnixon3_: effepi77: thats exactly what Im talkin about
 (15:35:31) kmoore134: well, that may be another feature we can consider
 (15:35:36) EffEPi77: in PHP is pretty easy :-D.. I so do need to learn 
python or QT...
 (15:35:41) jnixon3_: There are so many services like ping.fm on the web 
that want to update all your statuses at once, so I thought it'd be cool 
to take the middleman out, and have your desktop integrated with the 
API's of all your favorite websites.
 (15:36:08) gve2 left the room (quit: Client Quit).
 (15:36:15) gve2 [n=gve2 at 88-107-78-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] entered 
the room.
 (15:37:39) yerenkow: let's go further?
 (15:38:23) EffEPi77: yep...
 (15:38:41) yerenkow: #4. Pootle
 (15:39:04) yerenkow: is there REALLY no alternative :)
 (15:39:59) kmoore134: Thats the only one I'm aware of, does anybody 
else know of a decent translation GUI / tool we can use?
 (15:40:42) yerenkow: what input files for pootle do you use? you simply 
"upload" some mo file, yes?
 (15:42:31) kmoore134: we upload the .ts files from QT, then they turn 
into .po files for pootle, and back to .ts when finished :P
 (15:43:04) kasina left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection 
reset by peer)).
 (15:43:09) kasina [n=kennedy at] entered the room.
 (15:44:28) kmoore134: If anybody finds a better solution to Pootle, 
just e-mail me & Josh. I'm willing to change, but its gotta be an 
improvement ;)
 (15:45:35) yerenkow: I have web-translation tool, created for fan 
translations of console games :) it have reusage feature, suggestions, 
and it's ajaxian, so many text could be translated REALLY fast; but it's 
currently not production level; If we not bound to Pootle, we could 
think about migration to my tool, if this will have sense
 (15:46:41) yerenkow: ok, clear here
 (15:47:12) EffEPi77: yerenkow: is it in PHP ?
 (15:47:26) yerenkow: nope, it's J2EE :D
 (15:47:38) EffEPi77: ouch... :P ok then... no much I can help with :)
 (15:48:11) yerenkow: give me some IM contacts, if you have :)
 (15:48:38) EffEPi77: Yahoo: effepi_system
 (15:48:38) EffEPi77: AOL: EffEPi77
 (15:50:30) yerenkow: ok, about GUI
 (15:51:52) yerenkow: Have someone some thoughts about how we can create 
many GUI without much efforts? :)
 (15:52:25) kmoore134: you mean like the kdialog stuff we use right?
 (15:53:17) yerenkow: yes, but something like a bit more complex dialogs
 (15:53:36) yerenkow: I think about some xml definitions, or something else
 (15:54:10) kmoore134: I don't think we should re-invent the wheel here. 
That would be a TON of work, and you can always use kdialog, or even 
Python/QT4 if you really need to
 (15:54:33) kmoore134: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyQt4
 (15:54:51) kmoore134: we include PythonQT4 with base system, and KDE 
needs it, so I think its pretty safe to use
 (15:55:14) yerenkow: ok, someone will need to learn Python then :)
 (15:55:31) yerenkow: #6
 (15:55:57) jpaetzel: It's really wasy to think of a million things that 
would be so cool, the problem that PC-BSD faces is that there is a huge 
limitation of resources.
 (15:56:16) jpaetzel: So we need to really strive for maximum return on 
 (15:56:39) yerenkow: I'd raised this question some time ago, and Kris 
said that we shouldn't afraid of this :)
 (15:56:54) gve2 left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed 
 (15:57:14) kmoore134: jpaetzel is correct. More and more of my time is 
being spend on just maintaining PBIs, releases, writing patches, 
investigating bugs, etc. Its getting harder and harder to take on big 
new projects personally. So I need to rely on most of you for these "big 
ideas" to come to fruition :)
 (15:58:03) kmoore134: In this case, its best to just use python-qt4, 
instead of spending time writing a brand new format for script driven 
GUIs :)
 (15:58:44) yerenkow: fix PBI corruption issue, and make some easy way 
for creating new PBI, and you;ll have a bit more time, Kris :)
 (15:59:38) kmoore134: true, if we can automate PBI creation better, 
that saves me lots of time
 (16:00:57) yerenkow: #6 PBI Security
 (16:01:11) yerenkow: we'll do nothing? even some signing? :)
 (16:01:49) kmoore134: Right now we have md5 on pbidir.com, and internal 
md5 check when you first start to run PBI
 (16:02:08) kmoore134: so we can detect if program data bas been 
tampered with / corrupted
 (16:02:36) yerenkow: I'm not about this; I'm about making some 3rd 
party PBI, which could be dangerous
 (16:02:44) EffEPi77: Kris, does pbidir.com server have direct access to 
the pbi folder?
 (16:02:53) EffEPi77: I could check the md5 before serving the files.
 (16:04:00) kmoore134: fabry: They are on different box :( No room on 
webserver right now. Josh, when do we move web-server to new system? If 
so, I can mirror PBI's on hidden web-folder, and fabry can check sums then
 (16:04:03) yerenkow: Signed PBI's could be install as root; unsigned - 
not; what about this?
 (16:04:29) kmoore134: i'm not a big fan of having to do signed PBIs, 
and stopping people from making 3rd party ones
 (16:04:31) EffEPi77: br
 (16:04:32) EffEPi77: brb
 (16:05:14) kmoore134: If we go that route, we essentially become both 
operating system / software supplier, and everbody who wants to write an 
app for PC-BSD has to come to us to get a key, right?
 (16:05:45) yerenkow: we could give keys without problems
 (16:06:12) jpaetzel: Matt has some big master plan to yank out of SVWH 
and install a better set of systems in the new environment, but who 
knows about that
 (16:06:41) jpaetzel: I'd like to have thre systems, then I could set up 
2-3 failover so any one could drop without affecting anything.
 (16:07:27) jpaetzel: right now the webserver is very fragile, and out 
of disk space, there's no backplane network to NFS mount off the ftp 
server, no remote console
 (16:07:36) jpaetzel: And the box at ISC is in worse shape
 (16:07:45) kmoore134: jpaetzel: OK, so I'll have to bug matt about 
getting those systems in... AGAIN.... :P
 (16:07:59) jpaetzel: good luck
 (16:08:26) jpaetzel: Really the whole shooting match is super fragile.
 (16:08:32) kmoore134: yerenkow: If you can put together a schematic on 
how we can sign the PBIs, include the signature, so you can install 
offline / online, I may entertain the notion ;)
 (16:09:06) kmoore134: josh: yea, every time we release, we crash the 
web-server, and ISC is doing no better. I want them replaced like 
yesterday as well ;)
 (16:09:07) yerenkow: Ok, let's think about this
 (16:09:21) yerenkow: I'll send to testing list email, maybe there will 
be more ideas
 (16:09:47) yerenkow: #7
 (16:10:18) yerenkow: LC_ vars for non-english languages have probles
 (16:10:22) yerenkow: problems;
 (16:10:48) yerenkow: Kris, why LC_ALL vars was dropped?
 (16:12:36) kmoore134: yerenkow: This should be fixed now :)
 (16:12:52) kmoore134: # Check locale setup
 (16:12:52) kmoore134: if [ -z "${LANG}" ]
 (16:12:52) kmoore134: then
 (16:12:52) kmoore134:  LANG="`grep ^Language= 
~/.kde4/share/config/kdeglobals | cut -d '=' -f2`"
 (16:12:52) kmoore134:  if [ ! -z "${LANG}" ]
 (16:12:53) kmoore134:  then
 (16:12:55) kmoore134:  echo $LANG | grep "UTF-8" >/dev/null 2>/dev/null
 (16:12:56) yerenkow: is it fixed on PBI level or on System>
 (16:12:57) kmoore134:  if [ "$?" != "0" ]
 (16:12:59) kmoore134:  then
 (16:13:01) kmoore134:  LANG="${LANG}.UTF-8"
 (16:13:03) kmoore134:  fi
 (16:13:05) kmoore134:  export LANG
 (16:13:07) kmoore134:  LC_ALL="${LANG}" ; export LC_ALL
 (16:13:09) kmoore134:  fi
 (16:13:11) kmoore134: else
 (16:13:13) kmoore134:  LC_ALL="${LANG}" ; export LC_ALL
 (16:13:15) kmoore134: fi
 (16:13:17) kmoore134: thats what we got in PBI's now
 (16:13:19) kmoore134: its in each PBI, not system itself
 (16:13:28) kmoore134: if you grab something recently built, you'll see 
what I mean
 (16:13:59) yerenkow: I'll get this, I'll check if it works well
 (16:14:48) kmoore134: it seems to here, but let me know if you run into 
probs with it
 (16:15:20) yerenkow: Ok. I'm all done :) Maybe someone else have some 
 (16:16:01) kmoore134: http://www.pcbsd.org/~kris/newinstall-welcome.png
 (16:16:09) kmoore134: Thats URL for screenshot of new installer BTW
 (16:16:55) jpaetzel: Nice
 (16:17:36) kmoore134: Ken did a really good job with it, I'm looking 
forward to running it here on 8.0
 (16:18:38) yerenkow: Yep, good
 (16:18:47) jnixon3_: Wow, nice!
 (16:19:01) kmoore134: http://www.pcbsd.org/~kris/installer1.png
 (16:19:13) kmoore134: here's more recent, which scales properly on diff 
 (16:20:03) kmoore134: http://www.pcbsd.org/~kris/installer2.png
 (16:20:25) kmoore134: I have 1 or 2 things
 (16:20:28) kmoore134: before we all go
 (16:20:45) kmoore134: First, the Forums. PHPBB is showing its age, and 
its getting harder and harder to stop spammers.
 (16:21:03) kmoore134: Any suggestions on moving to new software? Heck, 
maybe even GoogleGroups?
 (16:21:09) yerenkow: Kris, we could in partition manager add 
mountpoints of other disks? For example, we installing on ad0s1c, and 
add mountpoint for ad2s1c for somewhere, like for /PCBSD ? :)
 (16:22:06) kmoore134: yerenkow: That could probably be done. We'll need 
to check with Ken, see if we can put that in new GUI, and then I'll 
write support for scripts to do it
 (16:22:12) yerenkow: Google groups not really forum, most of currently 
far defeloped forums are php; so I think we should search there
 (16:22:24) kasina: that is already considered
 (16:22:52) kasina: Its in the advanced module of the partitioner
 (16:23:07) kasina: maybe shifting it as can be suggested?
 (16:24:18) yerenkow: About forums, something like this should be 
 (16:24:53) kmoore134: ok, I'll look through list, see what other 
software options we have
 (16:24:57) jnixon3_: Ubuntuforums.org uses vBulletin
 (16:25:07) rcuevas: I installed PCBSD on my laptop, and work compiz and 
kde, great, but I don't know what update, broke my external monitor, 
which I used for meetings, I leave of PCBSD and install freebsd direct 
with kde 3.x
 (16:25:35) rcuevas: but, I love PCBSD, if dont break previous thinks
 (16:25:39) yerenkow: And if you currently have problems with DB load, 
you should think about PostgreSQL
 (16:26:00) kmoore134: jnix: would you like to look into this? You're a 
web-guy also, maybe recommend good forum software, which is secure from 
spam? :)
 (16:26:51) kmoore134: rcuevas: Are you still on 1.x / KDE3? Maybe the 
thing which broke it is update to Xorg 7.4? That broke lots of stuff, 
still sifting through it all
 (16:27:09) kmoore134: 2nd thing I had, was doing an End-Of-Life for 
PC-BSD 1.x series, and stop rolling PBIs for them at some point
 (16:27:23) jnixon3_: Yea, I will look into this some more, and see 
what's up. What we have to do currently is kind of ridiculous.
 (16:28:01) kmoore134: once we get moving on 8.0, we won't have manpower 
to keep maintaining PBI's for all FBSD 6.x, 7.x, and 8.x. And 6.x is 
breaking with more and more ports all the time
 (16:28:01) jpaetzel: PHP pretty much implies MySQL
 (16:28:22) jpaetzel: They have a fairly good database connector, PHP to 
postgres is a loser.
 (16:28:28) rcuevas: no, no, no, i'm now on kde3, because upgrades of 
PCBSD 7.x broke my system, them I formated and install freebsd 7.x 
because i need work with the laptop
 (16:28:34) yerenkow: postgresql-php not a problem
 (16:29:03) jpaetzel: Tell tha to the postgresql devs.
 (16:29:05) yerenkow: if there is a mysql load probles, pg could solve 
this, will be some win
 (16:29:05) rcuevas: I was installed PCBSD 7.1
 (16:29:20) ***jpaetzel was at pgcon last year.
 (16:29:22) rcuevas: then upgraded, then broken
 (16:29:23) kmoore134: rcuevas: Ahh, ok. Maybe e-mail me details about 
issue, and I'll see if we can figure it out
 (16:29:43) kmoore134: rcuevas: I use dual-head here, and it works fine 
still ;)
 (16:29:52) rcuevas: ok, I'm install PCBSD again on external disk for test
 (16:29:55) kmoore134: k
 (16:30:03) jpaetzel: yerenkow: I manage somethin like 25 really big 
postgresql installations, it's bnot a good solution for a PHP backend. :)
 (16:30:25) kmoore134: any comment about EOL for 1.x series and PBIs? 
Anybody still running lots of 1.x systems that need current apps?
 (16:30:27) rcuevas: work great on out the box install, but with 
upgrades broke
 (16:30:46) yerenkow: Oh well :) I had two succesful migration of big DB 
from my to pg, but there wasn't php :)
 (16:31:02) yerenkow: Didn't know there such with php :-P
 (16:31:23) jpaetzel: The postgresql -> php driver is not very good
 (16:31:26) rcuevas: another question, I don't have way to modify kdm 
theme. i cant switch to administrator mode, and i cant login as root
 (16:32:13) jnixon3_: use the System Settings (Administrator)
 (16:32:26) kmoore134: rcuevas: start -> applications -> system -> 
System Settings (Administrator)
 (16:33:57) yerenkow: I know, you guys running out of time :) Is there 
something important left?
 (16:34:07) rcuevas: ok, I dont have PCBSD on this moment, but i will
 (16:34:19) kmoore134: so, no comments on EOL for 1.x? Does that mean 
nobody is using it anymore? I was thinking of doing 2-3 month notice
 (16:35:01) yerenkow: I think you should make notice, and propose some 
vote or make poll "who's still on 1.x"
 (16:35:12) jnixon3_: I stopped using it when 7 went beta :P
 (16:35:21) rcuevas: another problem, knemo on kde3.x works fine with 
wireless, but on kde4, knetwork.... reset my wireless of time on time, 
very unstable.
 (16:35:31) yerenkow: and considering how many peoples use it - make EOL 
 (16:35:42) kmoore134: ok, we'll have to put poll in on forums
 (16:36:04) yerenkow: On 1.x still peopels who have some serious 
problems with 7
 (16:36:36) yerenkow: like hardware problems;
 (16:37:01) kmoore134: Well, hardware issues are tough for us, because 
thats depenant on FBSD itself. We don't have a lot of control over that
 (16:37:31) jpaetzel: New hardware gets new operating systems, old 
hardware gets old operating systems.
 (16:37:34) jnixon3_: If they have problems with KDE4, but want to use 
7, maybe they should give fluxbox a try
 (16:37:43) rcuevas: kmoore134, do you may put one option on install for 
select kde3.x or kde4.x ?
 (16:37:54) jpaetzel: Trying to install FreeBSD 7 on a box from 2005 is 
a path to things not working.
 (16:38:12) jnixon3_: Makes sense
 (16:38:20) EffEPi77: I am using it on a maching from 2006 with success
 (16:38:25) kmoore134: rcuevas: No, kde 3.x is defunct, and all apps are 
already moving to KDE4 / QT4, don't see reason to keep supporting it 
 (16:38:29) jpaetzel: As is installing FreeBSD 6 on something you just 
bought new today
 (16:38:31) yerenkow: actually I have two boxes, where install dvd not 
goes after trying to load kernel
 (16:38:43) yerenkow: so this is not KDE4 issues :)
 (16:39:35) jpaetzel: And FreeBSD 5.0 stoppd working on my dual pentium 
pro machine, whereas FreeBSD4.11 worked just fine. Go figure
 (16:39:37) rcuevas: for two reasons, compiz with kde3.x its more stable 
what kde4.x, and kde3.x its more stable with laptops vs kde4.x on 
wireless terms
 (16:40:10) rcuevas: :$
 (16:40:55) jpaetzel: I think our limited resources are best spent 
trying to move forward.
 (16:41:05) kmoore134: rcuevas: well, I can't change that at moment, but 
to say that KDE4 is improving daily. I find that compositing is far more 
stable on KDE4 than with compiz :)
 (16:41:05) jpaetzel: Not attempting to keep old stuff working.
 (16:41:32) yerenkow: How about ignore update feature? :)
 (16:41:47) kmoore134: jpaetzel: My thoughts exactly, we need to be 
looking forward to 8.0, not back at FreeBSD 6.x, and finding out why 
ports wont compile on it
 (16:41:54) jnixon3_: Yea
 (16:42:17) yerenkow: For example, I have intel/ati video, and not 
interested in NVidia driver updates. Will we have in future some "ignore 
update" feature
 (16:42:40) rcuevas: make sense
 (16:42:47) jnixon3_: Kris
 (16:42:51) yerenkow: and list installed and ignored "fixes"
 (16:42:58) kmoore134: yerenkow: Good thinking, I would have to create 
some categories, that you can ignore, and flag each update as what cat it is
 (16:43:03) jnixon3_: sorry, Im enter-happy this morning...
 (16:43:30) jnixon3_: And what about an Edit button on the WiFi profiles gui
 (16:43:44) rcuevas: mmmm, I don't, one list of the files will updating?
 (16:43:56) kmoore134: jnixon: Its on my TODO list still, maybe squeeze 
it into 7.2, but 8.0 for sure :)
 (16:44:06) yerenkow: Kris, what about roll-back update? Is it possible?
 (16:44:06) jnixon3_: Nice!
 (16:44:12) yerenkow: for any reason
 (16:44:18) EffEPi77: well, kris, not that easy ;-) as nvidia is "video 
drivers" category.. I want them, just not the nvidia ones (here I have 
the same tquestion.. why should I download nvidia when I have only intel)
 (16:44:44) yerenkow: I think we should ignore not categories, but 
individual updates
 (16:44:53) kmoore134: Ok, that makes sense
 (16:45:04) kmoore134: I'll put some thought into it, figure out how we 
can do that :)
 (16:45:34) EffEPi77: okie :).. let me know if you need help on that.. I 
had some experience with updates and similar
 (16:45:44) jnixon3_: And a cancel updates button maybe? ... Like when 
I'm updating 7 PBI's and realize I've just brought the office to a hault lol
 (16:45:49) yerenkow: But! we must be able list all ignored, and install 
it in future. For example, I have external HDD with PC-BSD, and I could 
use it somewhere with nvidia video
 (16:46:27) EffEPi77: there has to be a list somewhere to be able to 
ignore it :-)
 (16:46:41) EffEPi77: it would be just a feature that allow to show such 
list :)
 (16:46:46) jnixon3_: :P
 (16:46:47) yerenkow: So, would be good list all 
installed/ignored/available updates, and be able to 
install/uninstall/ignore/unignore them
 (16:47:32) kmoore134: yea, I think we could do that fairly easily, make 
a "show ignored" checkbox or something
 (16:48:07) EffEPi77: not sure about the uninstall.... Kris may say more 
about that.. some updates override files or change them, and they cannot 
be "undone" easily
 (16:48:07) EffEPi77: unless we start to use backups of files and DIFFs..
 (16:48:21) yerenkow: Okay, one more, mind-maps; Someone from you guys, 
give a try for Xmind PBI I created? :)
 (16:48:39) EffEPi77: at that point the need for a "free disk from this 
update" is necessary.. something that will remove the backup making the 
update "un-undeleteable"
 (16:48:50) kmoore134: yerenkow: Did you send me link to PBI you made of 
Xmind? I'll try it out
 (16:49:25) yerenkow: EffEPi77: If ome update broke my system because 
some FBSD hardware issue (or else) I would be VERY dissapointed being 
unable uninstall it :(
 (16:50:04) EffEPi77: I agree.. but in that case you would not be able 
to even start KDE.... :-)
 (16:50:23) yerenkow: http://gits.kiev.ua/pcbsd/ there are two zips for 
pcbsd7; I remembered, I haven't done PBIs :D
 (16:51:09) yerenkow: EffEPi77: About what would be good have before KDE 
starts, would be discussed in this year :D
 (16:51:15) EffEPi77: yerenkow: I agree that is a great feature, just 
don't think that is possible to undo all the changes.. Kris will 
probably know more once that he thinks a bit about it :)
 (16:51:28) kmoore134: yerenkow, lets try to make a PBI of xmind soon, 
that would be best
 (16:52:05) yerenkow: is builded with PBI creator (GUI one) would be 
enough? :)
 (16:52:27) kmoore134: That may be fine, would be best to use builder 
though, so we can re-roll it for amd64 as well, and remake it easily
 (16:52:29) yerenkow: And I have no amd64 installation, so I probably 
couldn't build amd64 ver
 (16:52:39) kmoore134: is xmind in ports?
 (16:52:43) yerenkow: nope
 (16:53:05) kmoore134: can you send me info on how you made it, and then 
I can automate it in pbi build module
 (16:53:10) ***miwi could porting xmind :>
 (16:53:25) kmoore134: miwi: that would be best! Make it easier for us :)
 (16:53:43) yerenkow: miwi, xmind need only executable build automation, 
and this binary is the same as in eclipse port :)\
 (16:53:43) kmoore134: miwi: are you also updating flock? Saw you as 
maintainer for it
 (16:54:07) yerenkow: apart from this, I took files from their portable 
 (16:54:43) miwi: i grepped all gecko stuff :(
 (16:54:49) yerenkow: And features which requires browser didn't work 
for me neither in Xmind, nor in Eclipse, so I think that's not must-have 
 (16:55:12) miwi: kmoore134: do you know where I can find the sources :)
 (16:55:22) miwi: i found only binarys :(
 (16:55:56) kmoore134: 
 (16:56:00) miwi: yerenkow: we have a lot Eclipse module ports
 (16:56:12) miwi: wtf
 (16:56:17) kmoore134: http://developer.flock.com/wiki/Main_Page
 (16:56:44) kmoore134: 
 (16:56:56) kmoore134: there you go, had to get right URL :P
 (16:57:15) kmoore134: anyway, does anybody else have anything else 
 (16:57:27) kmoore134: Who would like to post this log to pcbsd-dev tonight?
 (16:58:30) EffEPi77: I am going to save it.. someone else do it too.. 
just in case :-)
 (16:58:46) EffEPi77: I'll send it as an email to the mailing list
 (16:58:55) EffEPi77: if not, I send an email and someone else can post 
it :)
 (16:58:56) EffEPi77: ok?
 (16:59:03) kmoore134: k, thanks Fabry :)
 (16:59:14) kmoore134: E-mail me if you can't post it
 (16:59:41) EffEPi77: k
 (17:00:08) kmoore134: Well, i'm going to take off now. Thanks for 
attending everybody! Please make sure you are all subscribed to 
pcbsd-dev mailing list, and we can continue to discuss these ideas / 
features going forward
 (17:00:33) EffEPi77: ok, have a great evening everybody
 (17:00:48) jpaetzel left the room.
 (17:00:51) kasina: thank you
 (17:00:59) kmoore134: thank you all! ttyl!
 (17:01:02) kmoore134 left the room.
 (17:01:10) yerenkow left the room ("No matter how dark the night, 
somehow the Sun rises once again").
 (17:01:19) kasina left the room. 

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